How to Sell a Tree from Woodweb

This forum thread began with a question from someone who wanted to sell the wood of his walnut tree. - Editor

"I have a 32" walnut tree to sell. It`s still standing and is very tall with big limbs. Lots of veneer. How do I market the tree, advertise, etc.?" - Shawn

Somewhat surprisingly, the first response wasn't "can I buy some?" but a warning against trees designated later on in the thread as "yard trees." - Editor

"I'm sorry to tell you this, but a tree found anywhere around a structure (house, barn, etc.) is not worth anything. Even walnut. In all the years the tree has stood there, somebody has put metal in it (nails, clothesline hooks, bullets). These things will do damage to a saw blade. If you have the tree taken down you might get a sawyer to come and get the larger trunk. Good luck." - Paul

Not all of those responding, however, were so pessimistic. - Editor

"Check with your local forest agent; he will have names of buyers. After it is cut, you can look on the end of logs and tell if there is normally any metal in it: will cause black stains. We have bought lots of walnut trees next to houses with no problems. Good Luck." - E.C.

And Woodweb.com site founder Dr. Gene Wengert even weighed in with his opinion -- on both how to sell this specific tree and the value of "yard trees." - Editor

"The highest price for walnut is paid for logs that can be used for making veneer. However, the cost of hitting a piece of metal or similar object when veneering is extremely expensive: the knife will need to be reworked. So, the butt log is highly suspect. Metal detectors are indeed used, but one might be safe rather than sorry. So, a 'yard tree' does not offer the greatest financial potential. Nevertheless. sawing with a large saw that will not be overly bothered by small metal objects that a metal detector cannot easily detect is reasonable and profitable. Many portable sawmills that use small blades will not do well with 'metal logs.' (I have heard the name 'tramp metal used.) Your county forester should be able to help you locate potential log buyers. Probably best not to take the first offer, however. In fact, with today's weak market, letting the tree grow for a while might be a good idea. When the tree is cut down, end coat the log ends with a good coating properly applied." - Gene Wengert

So, eZine readers, what do you think? Have you ever sold -- or bought -- a "yard tree"? And was it a bargain find or a bane to your woodshop? - Editor

Thin-Kerf Saw Blades and Loss of Stiffness from Sawmill Creek

Every once in a while, a woodworker just gets a hankering to answer a scientific question about his tools. - Editor

"I got curious about how much easier it was to damage a thin-kerf saw blade than a regular kerf saw blade. I worked on it most of the day and finally found the answer on Dr. Bruce Lehmann's website. As saw plate gets thinner, the stiffness of the saw blade falls off by the cube of the difference. If we take a saw blade that is 20 percent thinner, then it has 80 percent of the original thickness. To calculate the difference in strength, you take the 80 percent and multiply it by itself three times. Thus .8 x.8 x .8 = .512 or 51.2 percent. Roughly a 20 percent reduction in saw plate thickness means about a 50 percent reduction in stiffness." - Tom W.

That may be so, said the next poster -- but the real question is, are those results OK or not? And the next: don't you need to take what you're using the blade for into account? - Editor

"What is the acceptable amount of deflection? The deflection depends on the force applied. Are we applying enough force to deflect a TK [thin-kerf] blade an unsuitable amount even though it is only 1/32" thinner? For example, a 1/4" thick blade is many times stiffer than an 1/8" blade; is it overkill? Are we at the cusp of blades that are too thin? What if the material properties change, which changes the young's modulus, and changes the deflection for the same force applied?" - Michael C.

"I think you also have to take into consideration what you're using the blade for, no? For instance, I would hazard a guess that miter cuts and cuts in materials such as MDF, plywood, particleboard, plastics and aluminum will have little effect on the side of the blade -- where stiffness would matter. I think the only type of cuts where you have to worry about deflection is on solid wood rips." - Jeff D.

Actually, said this poster, it's torque you have to watch out for -- and he spoke from experience. - Editor

"Based only on my own ham-handed, stupid, inexperienced, ignorant and hindsight is always 20/20 total destruction of a thin-kerf blade: The type of cut isn't anywhere near as crucial as the amount of torque applied to the arbor nut. If you tighten that baby down using my fat brother-in-law's 'turn it until the little veins on your forehead turn purple' method, the blade will deflect and, once it heats up any, that deflection will become a permanently warped blade. That little lesson cost me an 80T Freud thi kerf blade and the laser on my compound miter saw. The warpage was bad enough so that the blade would pick up small pieces of crown cut-offs and throw them at the back of the saw --where one found its mark on the laser and knocked it right out of its mount and busted it all up." - Rich E.

This poster wanted to check whether a stabilizer worked to correct the problem -- so he conducted his own experiment. - Editor

"Interesting thread. I use TK blades. I suspected they flexed somewhat. So I got a blade stabilizer from Forrest. I wanted to know whether the blade stabilizer did anything, so I performed a test. I crosscut a piece of wood with my sled, and then I colored the cut edge with a black marker. I then ran the already cut wood through the blade a few more times. I did this test with, and without, the stabilizer. What I discovered was that, without the stabilizer, the blade was removing more of the black marker. So the stabilizer does seem to be keeping the blade running flatter." - Phil T.

The original poster, who happens to be the president of Carbide Processors Inc., came back to say that stabilizers work, that some thin-kerf blades have built-in stabilizers -- and, interestingly, that the industry needs a different material for saw blades.

"It is fairly common here to see someone recommend a thin-kerf blade without mentioning the added dangers. There is nothing inherently wrong with thin-kerf blades. We make and sell a great number. I just thought someone should mention the additional possible danger. Besides stiffening collars, many blades have 'built-in' collars in the form of a thicker center such as 'thin rim' 'hollow rim' and 'stepped rim' blades. Yes, I believe there are occasions when the blades are overflexed. However, the saw blade industry very badly needs a better material than steel for saw bodies." - Tom Walz

Responding to this was a comment from a woodworker who says he only uses his thin-kerf blades in special circumstances, and a query from another who wanted to know what circumstances are deemed worthy of using them. - Editor

"I only use my full-kerf saws unless I need to save wood, then put on one of my TKs. I think most of the time recommendations for a TK are for a sub 2hp machine where a full-kerf may limit the saw and maybe a strong enough caveat isn't issued. Tom, is there anything on the horizon as a replacement for steel on the saw body?" - Van H.

"Guess I want to chime in here, and ask for a little SawBlade 101 info. My understanding is that there are two basic reasons to go TK: 1) Easier spin/cutting, where HP or torque are in short supply; 2) Less loss, when cutting expensive wood species. Are there other reasons?" - Neil B.

Tom Walz provided those "other reasons" in answer to the second question. - Editor

"Lower energy use in commercial operations. However, that is a pretty low priority and probably covered under your #1. Ninety-nine percent commercially is material utilization. Think of window blind plants or flooring companies. In even an ordinary sawmill, the cost of logs is maybe 80 percent of the cost of finished material.

He also talked about some about the state of saw blade making. - Editor

"the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of people making good saw blades anymore. If someone does produce poor quality, it is exposed on the Internet.Another factor is a more rigorous definition of what good quality means. You used to see saw blades on store shelves that would have runout of 0.008” or 0.010”. This is rare anymore. Now a retail blade should have a total runout of no more than 0.004” and many are down around 0.002”....

"There really isn't anything to replace steel in saw blades. You can alloy steel with nickel, chrome, vanadium and similar to make better saw plate. Warren Bird of California Knife and Saw makes stainless steel plate that is considerably superior to ordinary saw plate, but which is much more expensive. One of the big problems with building better saws is that almost no one runs the saw until it is used up. Weyerhauser once retipped one of their mill saws 50 times as an experiment. This doesn't happen in real life. Much more commonly, in real life, the saw gets damaged or the steel loses its ability to hold tension.

"Another consideration with saw steel is the cost of getting alloy that is homogenous enough and flat enough for saw plate. They don't make steel like that on the North American continent so it all has to be imported. It is extremely difficult to try new steels on any sort of our production basis because the minimum order is 20 tons. So a significant test of a new steel means ordering 40,000 pounds. Plus, it has to be shipped in sheets instead of rolled, which adds to the cost." - Tom Walz